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THE SAMOAN INVASIONS OF THE TONGAN ISLANDS (ANCIENT HISTORY)
 


SAMOA & TONGA (PLEASE BE SURE TO READ ALL OF THIS)


It is stated in Ancient Polynesians History that the 2 most Ancient Empires of Polynesia consisted of the Tui Pulotu Empire of (Fiji) and the Tui Manu'a Empire of (Samoa). These 2 Empires were long extinct prior to the arrival of Palagi's to the South Pacific Islands hence these 2 Empires are now mainly talked about through Legends etc......


It was during the rule of Tui Manu'a Fitiaumua that Samoa waged War on Tonga and parts of Fiji. War expeditions that consisted of 200 Alia (War Canoes) were sent from Saua Manu'a by orders of Tui Manu'a Fitiaumua to conquer Tonga and parts of Fiji in which he was successful.


When Tui Manu'a conquered parts of Fiji his efforts of warfare earned him the name FITIAUMUA or the most superior Warrior in Fiji it was found out that the powerful Fijian Armies and her allies were in heavy losses and could not match the SAMOAN WARRIOR Fitiaumua in any battles of his conquest of there land.

RESPECTED AND FAMOUS SCHOLAR OF TONGA (DR OKUSITINO MAHINA)

SamoainvasionsofTonga.png

MORE DETAILS FROM DR MAHINA OF TONGA:


Over time and space, Tongan society became more settled, shaped strictly by both internal pressure and external influences. The external influences came in the form of imperial activities beginning with the Tui Pulotu empire in Fiji and followed by the Tui Manua empire in Samoa. In other words, Tonga was under considerable influence from the imperialism of both Fiji and Samoa. However, Tonga was able to free herself through bitter and bloody wars from the imperial domination of the Tui Manua -- which eventually led to the formation of the Tui Tonga empire around AD 950 in the person of Ahoeitu, the first Tui Tonga -- whose father was a deified Samoan high chief, Tangaloa Eitumātupua, and mother a Tongan woman, Vaepopua, of great noble birth. This double origin entitled the Tui Tonga to hold both divine and secular offices. In principle, the close cultural and historical interlinkages between Fiji, Samoa and Tonga were essentially elitist, involving the intermarriage between regional aristocratic families. However, the rise and fall of these regional empires took place well before the contact with Europe.


This was not the only invasion of Samoans in Tonga another one takes place during the reign of the 1st Tui Tonga Ahoeitu.

DR LAMBERT FOUNDER OF TUPOU COLLEGE IN TONGA


A migration from Samoa to Tonga took place in the days of Aho-eitu. According to two genealogical tables showing the descent from Aho-eitu to the time of death King George Tubou (1893) the number of generations is 34. Therefore it would have been about the year 1050 that this second element was added to the inhabitants of Tonga-tapu island. These people came from Samoa, and first landed on the east end of the island near Lafonga, where they settled. These people, after living there for many years, eventually removed to the east entrance into Mua inlet, and some of them still live there. (Notice how it states Samoans were the second element added to the island of Tongatapu, the first element were FIJIANS).

ANOTHER MASS MIGRATION OF SAMOANS TO TONGA TOOK PLACE AS EARLY AS THE 1600'S.


A Civil War erupted in Samoa in which a famous War chief from the village of Safata in Upolu who carried the name Ama was defeated and ended up leaving Samoa to Tonga with many of his warriors and followers. While In Tonga Samoan Chief Ama'a daughter ends up marrying a Tui Haatakalaua (Royal Chief) there off spring was Ngata the first Tui Kanokupolu:


Tongan History claims during his migration to Tonga thousands of SAMOANS migrated to Tonga along with him and it was considered one of the biggest migrations of SAMOANS to TONGA. The Samoans established Ngata in HIHIFO where he became Tui HIHIFO and made Ngata a Sacred Samoan Chief on Tongan Soil (Tui A'ano Upolu or Kanokupolu) gave him protectors known as Tu'itu'i and Tafa'i which means those privileged to sit on the right and left hand of a chief, established the Fale Upolu (Fale Kanokupolu), his FONO (Fale Haakili) & his Itu (District) as a separate KINGDOM in TONGA.

THE SAMOAN MATAI SYSTEM


Matai - Title System

Tafa'i - Royal Protectors

Fale Upolu - Political Advisors

Aiga - Extended Family

Sa - Family, Royal Lines

Ali'i Paia - Sacred Chief District Monarch

Ali'i - High Chief

Tulafale Ali'i - Minor Chief

Tulafale - Chiefs Attendant

SAMOAN MATAI SYSTEM IN HIHIFO TONGA


Hingoa Fakanofo - Title System

Ulutolu - Chiefs Protectors

Fale Kanokupolu - Political Advisors

Kainga - Extended Family

Ha'a - Titled Chiefs related to an original Royal Line

Eiki Lahi - Paramount Chief

Eiki - High Chief

Eiki Si'i - Minor Chief

Matapule - Chiefs Attendants


Also many of Ngata's Samoan Family traveled to Tonga to become Chiefs for the Kanokupolu Line and ruled over certain districts as well as villages etc....


It is from Hihifo Tonga that Samoan Politics as well as strong Samoan influence stretched to all corners of Tonga this same dynasty is the reason Tonga today still practices Samoan Customs, Dances, traditions etc.......


Many of the Tui Kanokupolu's MATAPULE'S or HIGH CHIEFS installed to rule over various districts and villages in Tonga were all SAMOAN. This Samoan Dynasty in Tonga stretched Samoan Influence to all corners of Tonga in as little as 2 centuries.

Some Info:

-AKAUOLA:the toutai(navigator) of the king of Tonga. a member of the Ha'a Toutai. He is said to be of Samoan descent,the Samoan form of his title being La'auola. AKAUOLA and MOALA are related.

-HAUFANO: a matapule to the Tui Kanokupolu. Resides in Niuafo'ou.(**Hau**no, I believe to be or is FAU**NO..a not so common a name, but of Manu'a connections...ties..origin)

-KAMA: a matapule title derived from the AMA chiefly title of Safata district, Upolu Island, Samoa. Filise Vaitaiki was the personal name of the Kama of 1921.

-LEHA: matapule to Jioeli Pangia(the man who probably would be Tui Tonga, if the office were not absorbed by the Tui Kanokupolu). Leha's functions are house building and boat building.
The first LEHA came from SAMOA. Compare Lehapoto and Lehauli

-MOALA: a toutai(navigator) to the Tui Kanokupolu. He is of reputed SAMOAN descent and related to AKAUOLA. Seat is in the Hihifo district, Tongatapu.

*MOTU'APUAKA: One of the two great matapules of the Tui Kanokupolu. He is of SAMOAN lineage.

-TAHIMATAKIMOANA: a matapule of the village of Uiha, Uiha Island, Ha'apai, serving chief Malupo. (Malupo is also stated to be of Samoan lineage)

-'UHATAFE: a matapule and carpenter to the Tui Tonga of SAMOAN origin.

-UHI: a matapule to ATA. for origin see VAENO.
(**Uhi and Va'eno are of Samoan origin).

-ULA: a navigator title. The origin of Ula is SAMOAN. His seat is at Neiafu in the Hihifo district, Tongatapu. The Tamaha's genealogies show a succession as follows; ULA to his son's son Likuohihifo, to his son Amini. The late Queen Takipo, the wife of King George Tupou II, was the daughter of an ULA.

-VA'ENO: a matapule to Tungi. Of SAMOAN origin. A Samoan woman in the train of Tohuia(Limapo...the mother of the first Tui Kanokupolu) gave birth to twins who became Uhi and Va'eno . Their names became titles for two lines of matapule. Uhi is matapule to ATA.)

Kamoto, an important matapule, is the head of Fale Hakili, House of Hakili, said to be a Samoan Origin. He was brought to Hihifo when Ngata was born. The Hakili derives from Tohuia's uncle 'ILI of Samoan Origin.


This is just some of the SAMOANS of the TUI KANOKUPOLU DYNASTY. This Samoan Dynasty ruled Tonga and defeated the Tui Tonga line and the Tui Ha'atakalaua line and is currently ruling Tonga as of today. The literal translation of Kanokupolu means Flesh/Heart of Upolu Samoa.

TONGA'S HAA TUFUNGA


Ancient Haa Tufunga (Royal Undertakers) of Tonga were all Samoan. No one in Tonga were high enough rank to touch the King.

HEAD OF HA'A TUFUNGA WATCHED OVER ROYAL CASKET
tONGA.jpg

The Royal catafalque is transferred to the charge of Lauaki, known as Maliepo, Head of the Haa Tufunga (Royal undertakers). Maliepo stands atop the catafalque watching over the Royal Casket. He is an imposing figure on the skyline. He carries a tokotoko (walking stick) and a fue (fly whisk). The fue and To'oto'o, a Samoan ceremonial icon, shows the strong connection between Samoa and Tonga within the Tui Kanokupolu dynasty.

The Tongan Royal Language spoken by only the King and Royal Family is also of Samoan Origin and consists of various Samoan terms. Not even the people of Tonga speak it only Royals.

There is too much to write but this is good for now Soifua.



-- Edited by Manuatele on Friday 25th of March 2011 06:28:57 PM

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Rather than Tongan's, is it safe to say or assume that it was really Samoan's from Tonga who occupied certain villages in Samoa during the so called "Tongan rule"?



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Yes the entire lineage or ruling kings of Tonga were Samoan. In fact Tongans are Samoans. Every one of the TuiTonga's were from Samoan born high ranking women and their sons were the ruling kings of Tonga. This is why I am saddened when I hear that Samoans and Tongans fight or hate on each other.

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I swear, if I win Mega Millions (300 million of Friday), I would definitely fund the production of a Movie portraying these events. Why anyone hasn't done it yet is beyond me, but it is a history that needs to be told worldwide. Maybe this will help stem the violence? However, I can already see Tongan opposition to the production and my life, in danger.

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IesuMoAu wrote:

Yes the entire lineage or ruling kings of Tonga were Samoan. In fact Tongans are Samoans. Every one of the TuiTonga's were from Samoan born high ranking women and their sons were the ruling kings of Tonga. This is why I am saddened when I hear that Samoans and Tongans fight or hate on each other.






Clearly Tongans aren't Samoans.

Because um... I don't know.. they have a distinctly different language and society.

Tongans are Samoans in the same way that we are all Africans.

But I suppose you don't understand the concept of human migration being a creationist and all.

-- Edited by Challenger81 on Friday 25th of March 2011 03:52:19 PM

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As always Manuatele some interesting research you've been doin... will make a point to read it when im not so high :D

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Challenger81 wrote:

IesuMoAu wrote:

Yes the entire lineage or ruling kings of Tonga were Samoan. In fact Tongans are Samoans. Every one of the TuiTonga's were from Samoan born high ranking women and their sons were the ruling kings of Tonga. This is why I am saddened when I hear that Samoans and Tongans fight or hate on each other.






Clearly Tongans aren't Samoans.

Because um... I don't know.. they have a distinctly different language and society.

Tongans are Samoans in the same way that we are all Africans.

But I suppose you don't understand the concept of human migration being a creationist



Clearly u have no idea wat u are talkin about for u stated clearly u dont know much about ur so called Samoan heritage. There are islands today in Tonga who have Samoan mixed in there language such as Niuatoputapu, Niuafoou, Tafahi etc..... Even the Royal Language spoken by the Tongan Royal Family is Samoan a language different then there own people. Tongans are Samoans but wit a strong Fijian twist.



-- Edited by Manuatele on Friday 25th of March 2011 06:14:14 PM


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Manuatele wrote:

Challenger81 wrote:

IesuMoAu wrote:

Yes the entire lineage or ruling kings of Tonga were Samoan. In fact Tongans are Samoans. Every one of the TuiTonga's were from Samoan born high ranking women and their sons were the ruling kings of Tonga. This is why I am saddened when I hear that Samoans and Tongans fight or hate on each other.






Clearly Tongans aren't Samoans.

Because um... I don't know.. they have a distinctly different language and society.

Tongans are Samoans in the same way that we are all Africans.

But I suppose you don't understand the concept of human migration being a creationist



Clearly u have no idea wat u are talkin about for u stated clearly u dont know much about ur so called Samoan heritage. There are islands today in Tonga who have Samoan mixed in there language such as Niuatoputapu, Niuafoou, Tafahi etc..... Even the Royal Language spoken by the Tongan Royal Family is Samoan a language different then there own people. Tongans are Samoans but wit a strong Fijian twist.



-- Edited by Manuatele on Friday 25th of March 2011 06:14:14 PM





Challenger81 is a Troll - ignore him.


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Manuatele wrote:


Clearly u have no idea wat u are talkin about for u stated clearly u dont know much about ur so called Samoan heritage. There are islands today in Tonga who have Samoan mixed in there language such as Niuatoputapu, Niuafoou, Tafahi etc..... Even the Royal Language spoken by the Tongan Royal Family is Samoan a language different then there own people. Tongans are Samoans but wit a strong Fijian twist.



-- Edited by Manuatele on Friday 25th of March 2011 06:14:14 PM





The Royal family of Tonga speaks Samoan?

Really?

I didn't know that.

But in any case... Tongans aren't Samoans because obviously they are distinct identities.

It's like saying New Zealanders are British.

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Challenger81 wrote:

Manuatele wrote:


Clearly u have no idea wat u are talkin about for u stated clearly u dont know much about ur so called Samoan heritage. There are islands today in Tonga who have Samoan mixed in there language such as Niuatoputapu, Niuafoou, Tafahi etc..... Even the Royal Language spoken by the Tongan Royal Family is Samoan a language different then there own people. Tongans are Samoans but wit a strong Fijian twist.



-- Edited by Manuatele on Friday 25th of March 2011 06:14:14 PM





The Royal family of Tonga speaks Samoan?

Really?


I didn't know that.

But in any case... Tongans aren't Samoans because obviously they are distinct identities.

It's like saying New Zealanders are British.




Challenger to claim new zealanders are britsh is 100x different then claiming Tongans are Samoans. As you can see above there were various migrations of Samoans to Tonga. The name Tonga means South for it is said Samoam Seafarers travelled South of Samoa and settled Tonga. Tongan Legends point to a Samoan Chief Tui Manu'a who possessed Mana as being the creator of there islands (Legend of Maui). Tongans today perform and still practice Samoan Dances as well as traditions and culture. If u listen to Tonga's most Ancient Chants and Dances u will see that those dances are Samoan and are still today chanted and sung in the Samoan Language such as the Fahaiula, Otuhaka, Taualuga, Ma'ulu'ulu etc..... Tongan words were addedd to the original samoan chants as early as the 19th century.

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So that means Tongans are descendants of Samoans, who are said to be descendants from South East Asia.

Saying that Tongans are Samoans is like saying that Samoans are Filipino.

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Challenger81 once again shows his ignorance. Tonga means "south", to that I ask you south of what? South of Samoa. Oral history of both Samoa and Tonga gives Samoa the title of motherland. Even in the legends of Tonga they give respect to Samoa as the one that birthed the people of Tonga:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu'i_Tonga_Empire

In 950 AD Tu'i Tonga 'Aho'eitu started to expand his rule outside of Tonga. According to leading Tongan scholars, including Okusitino Mahina, the Tongan and Samoan oral traditions indicate that the first Tu'i Tonga was the son of their god Tangaloa.[3] As the ancestral homeland of the Tu'i Tonga dynasty and the abode of deities such as Tagaloa 'Eitumatupu'a, Tonga Fusifonua, and Tavatavaimanuka, the Manu'a islands of Samoa were considered sacred by the early Tongan kings.

What gave Samoan born men the right to rule in Tonga? It's because they understood where their heritage and bloodline came from.

http://asiapacificuniverse.com/asia_pacific/messages5/632.html

"Samoans were Tongans of old Polynesia. Samoans settled Tonga (South) as Samoans but they fornicated with the neighboring Melanesians (Fiji & Solomons) and created the still today current Tongan (Melanesian-Tonga) bloodline. At one time, royalty of Tonga married royalty of Samoa (Accepted in Culture) and they had Tonga-Samoa royal children. The royal families of these children were well taken care of by Samoan families because it was there culture to do so for Samoan royal families mixed with royal Tongans."

Here are more historical accounts:

http://books.google.com/books?id=LKIEAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA232&dq#v=onepage&q&f=false

Savaii is the home of all tradition in the south sea of Mahoris. Savaii is the largest of the Samoan islands. Adjacent to this is the Tonga group, so near that any people colonising Samoa, being a maritime people would know Tonga from the first, and maybe have settled both simultaneously. But there are no traditions of any migrations from Tonga, all are from SAmoa; and many customs in Tonga are acknowledged to be from Samoa. Mariner, in his admirable account of Tonga describes the dances from Samoa, and chants the words of which were not understood, although repeated by one generation from the preceeding, by Tongans, but supposed to be Samoan. Except that the Tongan is now so much intermixed with the Fijian blood, it may be considered Samoan.

About 300 miles S. by E. of Samoa is Niue, and here is a Samoan colony. The people themselves say so, speaking an almost pure Samoan dialect, having the same appearance and customs as Samoans, only varied by their change from a very rich to a very poor island.

North of Samoa a chain of groups and islands extends to the Equator. The people speak a Samoan dialect.

About 600 miles NW of Samoa is the Ellice group. The people here, again speak a dilect resembling Samoan more than any other. But a most decisive proof of their history was recently obtained by Dr. G. A. Turner while visiting the missions of the group. He was shown and he ultimately obtained, a spear or staff, which their orators held while speaking, a Samoan custom indicating the holder's right to speak; this staff was ancient and genealogists; they said they brought it with them from Samoa, and named the valley where they came from thirty generations back.

NW of the Ellice are the Kingsmill or Gilbert Islands, 1,500 miles of Samoa. These isles are all of the same people trying to live in the same way as Samoans. Their plants they cultivate are foreign to such soil but is part of the Samoan species.

Page 238-239

Like the Kingsmills, Rarotonga seems to have been colonized from two sides at once; but both parties came originally from Samoa. Two clans hold Rarotonga, the Ngati Makea and the Ngati Tangiia. Tradition says that Karika, chief of the clan Makea, came from Manua, in Samoa, 800 miles N.W., and discovered Rarotonga; that he returned to Manua, and formed an expedition to settle in Rarotonga, and sailed. Upon his arrival a second time he fell in with Tangiia, who had come from Tahiti; Karika had only warriors in his party. Tangiia had some women and children; so Tangiia yielded the supremacy to Karika, which is maintained yet. The two clans settled together amicably, but found some black people there before them.

Tangiia tradition says that they were driven from Tahiti on account of disputes about land, where Tangiia was of A'a; but the full tradition of this family shows they came from Samoa to Tahiti. The present Queen Makea, of Rarotonga, is twenty -ninth in descent from Karika, of Manua.

We have thus direct assurance that the Rarotongans came from Samoa, one colony having first tried to settle in Tahiti, but apparantly crowded out there. We have found traditions, names and identity of language and customs south and east and north of Samoa, all pointing to it as the centre from which all the South Pacific was settled on these sides. We have thus made Samoa the first home of the Mahori in the South Sea."



As you can see, Samoa is the motherland where Polynesians was birthed. I can give you more but just know that both Tonga and Samoa agree that its' beginning in oral history starts in Samoa as one people.

Anyhow sorry about the mess I can't seem to find the BBCode editor in my settings.

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Here is genetic evidence of the people of Tonga and Samoa being one and the same:

http://hpgl.stanford.edu/publications/PNAS_2000_v97_p8225.pdf

"The question surrounding the colonization of Polynesia has remained controversial. Two hypotheses, one postulating Taiwan as the putative homeland and the other asserting a Melanesian origin of the Polynesian people, have received considerable attention. In this work, we present haplotype data based on the distribution of 19 biallelic polymorphisms on the Y chromosome in a sample of 551 male individuals from 36 populations living in Southeast Asia, Taiwan, Micronesia, Melanesia, and Polynesia. Suprisingly, nearly none of the Taiwanese Y haplotypes were found in Micronesia and Polynesia. Likewise, a Melanesian-specific haplotype was not found among the Polynesians. However, all of the Polynesian, Micronesian, and Taiwanese haplotypes are present in the extant Southeast Asian populations. Evidently, the Y-chromosome data do not lend support to either of the prevailing hypotheses. Rather, we postulate that Southeast Asia provided a genetic source for two indipendent migrations, one toward Taiwan and the other toward Polynesia through island Southeast Asia."

"Melanesian origin of Polynesian Y chromosomes(??) Manfred Kayser, Silke Brauer, Gunter Weiss, Peter A. Underhill, Lutz Roewer, Wulf Schiefenhovel and Mark Stoneking.

A median-joining network connecting all 39 haplotypes revealed that all Polynesian haplotypes form a tight cluster and can be connected to each other mostly by single-step mutations, with the exception of one of the West Samoan haplotypes.

In contrast, Melanesian and Indonesian haplotypes appeared in different parts of the network and were separated by a large number of mutations. The time back to the most recent common ancestor (mrca) of all 75 individuals carrying the DYS390.3 deletion on the RPS4Y711T chromosome background was estimated to be 11,500 years. A signal of slight population growth dating back to the start of a population expansion about 5,000 years ago was detected.

When the analysis was restricted to Polynesians, a much stronger signal of population growth was detected, indicating a population expansion starting about 2,200 years ago.

Haplotype diversity and the mean number of pairwise differences were higher in Melanesia than in Polynesia or Indonesia and a coalescence-based approach indicated that the deletion arose about 11,500 years ago. These results therefore indicate that the major Y-chromosome haplotype in Polynesians originated in Melanesia 11,500 years ago.

A third hypothesis is that the DYS390.3del/RPS4Y711T haplotype arose in Polynesia, and therefore the presence of this haplotype in Melanesia represents a substantial back-migration from Polynesia. The high frequency of this haplotype in Polynesia, and the central position of Polynesian types in the Y-STR haplotype network, provide some support for this explanation.

Su et al found no evidence for a Melanesian origin of Polynesian Y chromosomes, because their major Melanesian Y-chromosomal haplotype (H17, characterised by mutations at M4, M5 and M9 [37]) was not found in Polynesia. We also found this haplotype in high frequency in Melanesia and concur that it is absent from Polynesia; Furthermore, the detected moderate population growth and the estimated start of population expansion at about 6,000 years ago is in perfect agreement with archaeological data, which suggest that the Austronesian expansion started about 6,000 years ago from Asia/Taiwan. Also, a particular allele, HLA DRB1-0901, that was observed at high frequency (26-45%) in Polynesians [41,42] and at moderate frequency (10-15%) in mainland Asia and is rare in Melanesian populations except in the Trobriands at a frequency of 18%-(which is a Polynesian outlier)." (2)"

This is why the suggested points that the Lapita people of Polynesia cannot be the known Polynesians today.

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Here is more information:

http://www.janesoceania.com/polynesian_triangle/index.htm


"There is a much closer similarity between the Tongan and Samoan languages than with languages of other Polynesian groups. The word Tonga, which means south, is taken by many of the wise men of Tonga to suggest their migration from Samoa, because the Tongan group is south of the old island-home Samoa. It is claimed that many of the plants and animals of Tonga came from Samoa. One of their several legends described that Chief Maui obtained from Samoa the fish-hook with which he pulled up Tongatabu (Tongatapu) from the bottom of the ocean. The Tongans are firm in their belief that they came from Samoa to Tonga in spite of the fact that Hawaii has the name like "Savaii" of Samoa. In Hawaii also is a district named "Kona"."


http://publishing.cdlib.org/ucpressebooks/view?docId=kt6b69q3vg&chunk.id=ch02&toc.id=&brand=eschol

From the Tongans I learned about the antiquity of their country. They have preserved the names of their rulers for over 1,000 years. They told me the legend of their origin, how the great Maui from the underworld went to Samoa to obtain a fishhook from an old man there, Toga Fusifonua, and then, using the hook, pulled up Tongatabu and the low islands of Ha'apai, Vava'u and the Niuas. The high islands of Kao and Tofua were made of chips thrown from the sky by the stonemason god, Tagaloa Tufuga.

Where did you Tongans come from?

Samoa, was the answer. The language, customs, and stories are more like the Samoan than any other Polynesian culture. Tonga means south.

Representative of the royal family Tui Tonga:


http://www.jps.auckland.ac.nz/document/Volume_20_1911/Volume_20,_No._4

"IN reference to enquiry at Tonga as to the celebrated ancestor Ruatapu, I had several interviews with Fata-fehi, the king's father, who is the representative of the Tui-Tonga (or the sacred high priest of former days).

He says the name of Ruatapu is familiar in Tongan tradition, but he could not remember any particulars except that he is said to have carried the name of Tonga to Rarotongaor Lalotonga, as he called it. He thinks that Lalo-tonga meant under-Tongathat is to say, that the people gave the name Tonga to some elevation, hill, or mountain, under which they lived, on the sea-beach or on flats surrounding the hills. 1

I incidentally obtained the following information:The origination of the name Tonga is given in the following legendary reminiscence with which he favoured me. I give it in his own words as translated by the Rev. J. B. Watkin:
- 166

The name Tonga is a personal name; it was that of a great chief, Tui-Manuka; that is, the chief named Tonga was tui, or king, of Manuka, a place in Samoa.(Hamoa he called it. 2) This chief named Tonga was a great fisherman, and he had one celebrated hook in his collection by means of which he could fish up land.

Now Maui-kisikisi (Maui-tikitiki in Maori) was a chief among the spirits, and he said to his followers,Let us go to Manuka and get a hook and fish for land. So they went to Manuka, which is Hamoa, and Maui-kisikisi went on shore; here he met with a womanshe was the wife of Tui-Manuka, and her name was Tavatavai-Manuka. They embraced and went wrong. The woman asked Maui where he was going. He told her that his party were going to see Tui-Manuka to get one of his hooks."




Again, the people of Tonga knows that they are descended from Samoa. The only difference is that now they are mixed with Melanesian blood due to their close proximity and dealings with the Fijians.

Challenger81 your ignorance on your very own history of the people of Polynesia is evident. I know you may be talking in scientific terms but it's clear that Tongans ARE SAMOANS and my stance is clear even in genetics and linguistic evidences.

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None of that runs counter to anything I've said.

Samoans and Tongans could be completely identical but you still couldn't say Tongans are Samoans.

Here's a hint.. the flaw is in the wording not in any of the information you think makes it true.

Genetic evidence?

lol.. Does genetics define nationality does it? Where did you get your knowledge from? A hundred year old textbook? There is as much genetic diversity between so called nationalities/races etc as there are between them.

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Challenger81 wrote:

None of that runs counter to anything I've said.

Samoans and Tongans could be completely identical but you still couldn't say Tongans are Samoans.

Here's a hint.. the flaw is in the wording not in any of the information you think makes it true.

Genetic evidence?

lol.. Does genetics define nationality does it? Where did you get your knowledge from? A hundred year old textbook? There is as much genetic diversity between so called nationalities/races etc as there are between them.






So if Tongans say they come from Samoa and are descendants from Samoa, what is your issue with what I said?

Genetically, Samoans and Tongans if you read it without your stupidity will tell you how to trace their ancestry and link.

Face it, you have nothing to grasp on but making it now a "wording" issue. In short, you're an idiot.

I see you have nothing to say regarding any of the historical and evidences that was put forth. All you're doing is dumbing down your stance since you know you have nothing to say except fight over simplistic wording.

-- Edited by IesuMoAu on Saturday 26th of March 2011 12:32:15 PM

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Do Tongans say they come from Samoa? That would be rather stupid. Tongans.. you know.. come from TONGA.

lol... you DID get your information about races from a hundred year old textbook.

And like I said earlier. In theory you can trace your ancestry all the way back to North Africa. Where's the line you draw in making a distinction? You might as well say Tongans and Samoans are Africans. It has as much legitimacy as saying Tongans are Samoans (except you can't make as much of a humanistic point with it)

-- Edited by Challenger81 on Saturday 26th of March 2011 12:37:58 PM

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Challenger81 wrote:

Do Tongans say they come from Samoa? That would be rather stupid. Tongans.. you know.. come from TONGA.

lol... you DID get your information about races from a hundred year old textbook.

And like I said earlier. In theory you can trace your ancestry all the way back to North Africa. Where's the line you draw in making a distinction? You might as well say Tongans and Samoans are Africans. It has as much legitimacy as saying Tongans are Samoans (except you can't make as much of a point with it)






You're obviously an ignorant clown because I did put up the links:


http://publishing.cdlib.org/ucpressebooks/view?docId=kt6b69q3vg&chunk.id=ch02&toc.id=&brand=eschol

From the Tongans I learned about the antiquity of their country. They have preserved the names of their rulers for over 1,000 years. They told me the legend of their origin, how the great Maui from the underworld went to Samoa to obtain a fishhook from an old man there, Toga Fusifonua, and then, using the hook, pulled up Tongatabu and the low islands of Ha'apai, Vava'u and the Niuas. The high islands of Kao and Tofua were made of chips thrown from the sky by the stonemason god, Tagaloa Tufuga.

Where did you Tongans come from?

Samoa, was the answer. The language, customs, and stories are more like the Samoan than any other Polynesian culture. Tonga means south.

Representative of the royal family Tui Tonga:


http://www.jps.auckland.ac.nz/document/Volume_20_1911/Volume_20,_No._4

"IN reference to enquiry at Tonga as to the celebrated ancestor Ruatapu, I had several interviews with Fata-fehi, the king's father, who is the representative of the Tui-Tonga (or the sacred high priest of former days).

He says the name of Ruatapu is familiar in Tongan tradition, but he could not remember any particulars except that he is said to have carried the name of Tonga to Rarotongaor Lalotonga, as he called it. He thinks that Lalo-tonga meant under-Tongathat is to say, that the people gave the name Tonga to some elevation, hill, or mountain, under which they lived, on the sea-beach or on flats surrounding the hills. 1

I incidentally obtained the following information:The origination of the name Tonga is given in the following legendary reminiscence with which he favoured me. I give it in his own words as translated by the Rev. J. B. Watkin:
- 166

The name Tonga is a personal name; it was that of a great chief, Tui-Manuka; that is, the chief named Tonga was tui, or king, of Manuka, a place in Samoa.(Hamoa he called it. 2) This chief named Tonga was a great fisherman, and he had one celebrated hook in his collection by means of which he could fish up land.

Now Maui-kisikisi (Maui-tikitiki in Maori) was a chief among the spirits, and he said to his followers,Let us go to Manuka and get a hook and fish for land. So they went to Manuka, which is Hamoa, and Maui-kisikisi went on shore; here he met with a womanshe was the wife of Tui-Manuka, and her name was Tavatavai-Manuka. They embraced and went wrong. The woman asked Maui where he was going. He told her that his party were going to see Tui-Manuka to get one of his hooks."



That's from their own lips. Yes we know they are from Tonga. You're making a fuss over the fact that I said Tongans are Samoans? You're fighting over simplistic issues such as this? You have no leg to stand on. Don't act as if you know anything about Samoans because your ignorance about the culture and history is clear.

Now genetically, you can trace a people through genetic markers, etc.

Please stop being stupid. You're making a fuss over the fact that I made a connection between Tongans and Samoans which they themselves claim.

-- Edited by IesuMoAu on Saturday 26th of March 2011 12:41:02 PM

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Haha.. he still doesn't get it.

You could post every link in the world.. none of it supports your assertion that "Tongans are Samoans"

Haha! Genetic markers are used for CONVENIENCE to trace populations. They don't DEFINE a population you idiot. Samoans and Tongans probably share genetic markers with other populations too (I already mentioned South East Asians). Shall we start saying Samoans are Filipino?

Please don't start talking about science again.. you've already shown yourself up to be an idiot with regard to evolution.

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So is that the only proof you have is that Samoans aren't Tongans?

lol.

How many times are you going to say that without proof?

"The children of the Polynesian forebears were then genetically drifted into isolation and maintained in the Samoa-Tonga area 2000-500BC, Savai'i & Upolu in particular ( Speciation ). They developed a unique Polynesian culture to meet their needs for survival. A culture anciently based on strong family values, community sharing & responsibility and a valued respect for community elders, a community-centered or ' communism ' ideology. In this discussion, we will first analyze Population Genetics as it applies to the development or evolution of the Polynesian people, and then focus to analyze the development of their unique Polynesian culture.

POLYNESIAN GENETICS:

The Hardy-Weinberg Principle of Genetics was not met by the Polynesian forebears as they migrated from the western lands of South East Asia to the eastern lands, hence a new race of people & a new culture developed in isolation around 2000-500BC in the Samoa & Tonga area ( Savai'i & Upolu ). The Hardy-Weinberg Equilibrium calls for the following to maintain stable population genetics :

(1) Large populations
(2) Random mating
(3) No genetic drifts
(4) No mutations
(5) No genetic migrations
(6) Equal mating opportunity among members.

When these conditions are met, genetics in a population maintain stability, without the development of new species or breeds."

The original genes of the Polynesian forebears evolved into a more fit population manifestation as Polynesian children. These Polynesians found new lands, settled them as small population units ( Non-random mating, no equal chance of reproduction & small populations ), and flourished in the production of new offspring in Samoa & Tonga ( Natural Selection, Evolution, Genetic Drifts & Migration ). After a long period of settlement in one area in Upolu & Savai'i, Samoa-Tonga from 2000BC to 100AD, much genetic stabilization had occurred, then they as a new unique race or breed of people migrated to settle Marquesas 100AD, to Tahiti 300AD, to Hawaii 500AD & then finally in 800-1000AD to settle Aotearoa, New Zealand.

In the big picture, the Polynesians populated the Polynesian Triangle from Western Polynesia to Eastern Polynesia and then back west to Aotearoa, New Zealand 800-1000AD. Language similarities, physical morphologies, archaeology, anthropology & genetic studies on these Polynesian islands all point to Savai'i, Samoa in Western Polynesia as the original homeland of all Polynesians. Ask Polynesians where they came from and they will tell you, ' from the WEST.'

-- Edited by IesuMoAu on Saturday 26th of March 2011 01:09:42 PM

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So far I have put up:

Linguistic evidence
Oral history
Genetics

What has Challenger81 put up?

Oh he has his mouth to back him up by saying "Tongans aren't Samoans", yeah, duh...

We know you're hanging on simplistic arguments such as they have their own island blah blah blah.

Get lost.

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Haha! You STILL don't get it do you.

Tongans and Samoans are in the same "sub-group" of humans regarding population genetics (which doesn't define race BTW) but to say TONGANS ARE SAMOANS is stupid.

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IesuMoAu wrote:

So far I have put up:

Linguistic evidence
Oral history
Genetics

What has Challenger81 put up?

Oh he has his mouth to back him up by saying "Tongans aren't Samoans", yeah, duh...

We know you're hanging on simplistic arguments such as they have their own island blah blah blah.

Get lost.






lol.. I've made the same "simplistic" point the whole time.

You're the one making the big fuss over it.

All you needed to do was reword it you idiot.

But no... you are such a wanker that you had to put up a fight and turn it into something bigger than what it should have been just so you can "save face".

-- Edited by Challenger81 on Saturday 26th of March 2011 01:19:10 PM

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Challenger81 wrote:

Haha! You STILL don't get it do you. Tongans and Samoans are in the same "sub-group" of humans regarding population genetics (which doesn't define race BTW) but to say TONGANS ARE SAMOANS is stupid.


Let me ask you a question: If my ancestors came from Samoa, why can't I say I am Samoan? There are many Tokelaus who claim Samoan because they also know their history and heritage that leads back to Samoa. You're really grasping for straws. You're trying to make this scientific, but even in science there is a connection between the people of Tonga and Samoa, and it's a strong one. You're really making a big stink over nothing but your ignorance on history and heritage. Just admit it and move on.

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In theory, you can say you're Samoan if you're ancestors DIDN'T come from Samoa but you feel a strong connection to Samoa and sincerely believed that you were Samoan.

You probably wouldn't be accepted as Samoan by other Samoans of course..

But are you starting to understand why saying "Tongans are Samoans" is stupid yet?

Like I said.. it doesn't matter if they are IDENTICAL in language and culture. My point would still stand.

Oh and your scientific evidence didn't really prove anything except Tongans and Samoans are more closely related than Filipinos and Samoans.

It's like saying my brother is more closely related to me than my father's cousin.

-- Edited by Challenger81 on Saturday 26th of March 2011 01:32:32 PM

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Challenger81 wrote:

In theory, you can say you're Samoan if you're ancestors DIDN'T come from Samoa but you feel a strong connection to Samoa and sincerely believed that you were Samoan. You probably wouldn't be accepted as Samoan by other Samoans of course.. But are you starting to understand why saying "Tongans are Samoans" is stupid yet? Like I said.. it doesn't matter if they are IDENTICAL in language and culture. My point would still stand. Oh and your scientific evidence didn't really prove anything except Tongans and Samoans are more closely related than Filipinos and Samoans. It's like saying my brother is more closely related to me than my father's cousin. -- Edited by Challenger81 on Saturday 26th of March 2011 01:32:32 PM


You're making a claim that my statement is false. Tongans claim that they came from Samoa. Historical evidences shows that they descended from Samoa. I have EVERY right to say what I just said. If you don't like it, that's your ignorance and stubbornness.

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IesuMoAu wrote:

If you don't like it, that's your ignorance and stubbornness.




No it's my correct use of the English language, understanding of nationality, nationalism and identity politics and my rational application of that knowledge.

-- Edited by Challenger81 on Saturday 26th of March 2011 01:49:16 PM

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Challenger81 wrote:

IesuMoAu wrote:
If you don't like it, that's your ignorance and stubbornness.

No it's my correct use of the English language, understanding of nationality, nationalism and identity politics and my rational application of that knowledge. -- Edited by Challenger81 on Saturday 26th of March 2011 01:49:16 PM

If you understand what you were talking about, then why did you question if Tongans actually admit to come from Samoa? When I showed you proof, you conveniently ignored it like you always do. Listen, I know you don't like me because I exposed you for what you are (A FAKE), but you don't have to follow me around looking for a fight over simplistic narrow minded viewpoints that only shows your stupidity. BTW, you may think highly of yourself, but really you're nothing but a robot chasing fools gold.

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I was talking about your normal everyday Tongan you fool.

Ask a Tongan where he/she is from and he will say Tonga.

A Tongan will only admit they descended from Samoa if they happen to be knowledgeable on the subject and if you phrase the question "Where are Tongans descended from"

I doubt you will ever hear a Tongan say "I'm Samoan".

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Challenger81 wrote:

I was talking about your normal everyday Tongan you fool. Ask a Tongan where he/she is from and he will say Tonga. A Tongan will only admit they descended from Samoa if they happen to be knowledgeable on the subject and if you phrase the question "Where are Tongans descended from" I doubt you will ever hear a Tongan say "I'm Samoan".


True to an extent but you will always here Tongans say im Tongan and Samoan or Im Tongan with Samoan blood.

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