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SAMOAN & TONGAN HISTORY


Now its time to get down to business for those of you who dont like debating or no little about history feel free to not comment but for those of you who love debating and stating facts by all means comment (SAMOAN or TONGAN).

I came across some interesting Facts.

I came across a time line of Tui Tonga's and there descent and from this time line I learned the following:

1) Ahoeitu 1st Tui Tonga was of Samoan & Niuatoputapuan Descent. Now if you know history Niua Islands were anciently a colony of SAMOA.

2) The famous Chief LOAU of Tonga was not of Tongan descent he was SAMOAN. (Eastern Polynesian Descent the most Eastern Islands of Samoa is Manu'a.) Tongan History always refers to Loau as a foreigner and now we know why.


There was a marriage between Loau's daughter and the 10th Tui Tonga Momo. Tongan History states that the marriage between Loau's daughter and the 10th Tui Tonga Momo tell about an alliance between Tonga and Samoa which was the beginning of the Tongan Influence in Polynesia.

The Samoan Chief Loau was a foreigner in Tonga but ruled parts of Tonga but was said to have been the King of Samoa. Many Tongans claim Loau was a Tui Tonga but he was not a Tui Tonga but they say that his status was very high.

Is it me or is it starting to sound like the foreigner Loau was actually a Samoan Tui Manu'a Ma Samoa Atoa.


I will post more Facts later please feel free to comment.






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You may not be far from the truth.
The practice of getting a royal member from Samoa to become a King in another corner of Polynesia was not uncommon. When the last of a line of Kings of the Big island of Hawaii died around 1000AD, they sent for Pili from Samoa to become their new ruler. Paao, the chief Kahuna of the old religion of Hawaii, which was brought to Hawaii from Samoa, supervised this adventure and went back to Samoa where Pili was brought with great pomp and circumstance to become the new king of the big island of Hawaii. From Pili's line emerged Kamehameha the first. Kamehameha conquered and united the Hawaiian islands into a single kingdom. They are the only recognized royal family of Hawaii today. What is interesting is that when Kamehameha was discussed as a topic for a movie, the Hollywood execs wanted the Rock, Seiuli D. Johnson, to play the lead role. The Hawaiians protested. They wanted a Hawaiian to play the role. So the movie lies in some producers inbox collecting dust. Actually the Hollywood execs had it right the first time, the Rock is probably more connected to Kamehameha than some Japanese/Hawaiian/Filipino actor they would use based on the actual geneology of Kamehameha.

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The place you get these "facts" from... how do you know which is credible or not? I find many anthropologists have differing views, which is why so many Tongans and Samoans think they colonised first or what have you. How do you know which sources are reliable...

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-- Edited by Manuatele on Monday 1st of March 2010 05:42:53 PM

-- Edited by Manuatele on Monday 1st of March 2010 05:46:52 PM

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Manuatele wrote:

Lala wrote:

The place you get these "facts" from... how do you know which is credible or not? I find many anthropologists have differing views, which is why so many Tongans and Samoans think they colonised first or what have you. How do you know which sources are reliable...






You learn as many Polynesian Islands History as you can mostly from Books etc....

Here maybe this will help more:

This is a genealogy graph of Tongan Kings written by Tongan Scholar Dr Mahina:





-- Edited by Manuatele on Monday 1st of March 2010 06:36:10 PM

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@Lala

I agree with what you're saying. Even within the Samoan community there are conflicting versions on some major events. I guess the best solution for the differing versions is to go with the "general" consensus on which story is legitimate and which is not. But a lot of common sense has to be used as well.

@Manu'atele

Notice how in the chart the Tuitoga line went from Tuitatu'i(11th) to Talaha'apepe(14th) to Talakaifaiki(15th). That's just 3 generations seperating them as I mentioned on another thread.

But I do have to disagree on the claim of Lo'au being from Manu'a. Dr. Okusitino is well aware of the existance of the island group of Manu'a. If he, or Queen Salote, thought Lo'au was from Manu'a he would've written that in his chart/book. Instead, he wrote Samoan-Eastern Polynesian decent. As with Ahoeitu, Dr. Okusitino wrote Samoan-Niutoputapuan/Tongan Decent. I would say it's safer to assume that in both cases he meant that one parent was Samoan and the other was, in Lo'au's case, eastern polynesian.

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victor creed wrote:

@Lala

I agree with what you're saying. Even within the Samoan community there are conflicting versions on some major events. I guess the best solution for the differing versions is to go with the "general" consensus on which story is legitimate and which is not. But a lot of common sense has to be used as well.

@Manu'atele

Notice how in the chart the Tuitoga line went from Tuitatu'i(11th) to Talaha'apepe(14th) to Talakaifaiki(15th). That's just 3 generations seperating them as I mentioned on another thread.

But I do have to disagree on the claim of Lo'au being from Manu'a. Dr. Okusitino is well aware of the existance of the island group of Manu'a. If he, or Queen Salote, thought Lo'au was from Manu'a he would've written that in his chart/book. Instead, he wrote Samoan-Eastern Polynesian decent. As with Ahoeitu, Dr. Okusitino wrote Samoan-Niutoputapuan/Tongan Decent. I would say it's safer to assume that in both cases he meant that one parent was Samoan and the other was, in Lo'au's case, eastern polynesian.






Your wrote:

Notice how in the chart the Tuitoga line went from Tuitatu'i(11th) to Talaha'apepe(14th) to Talakaifaiki(15th). That's just 3 generations seperating them as I mentioned on another thread.

You are correct I remember you posting about that on the other topic.

As for both Ahoeitu & Loau's parents you are correct. Ahoeitu's father is said to have been a Samoan Tui Manu'a while his mother was Tongan daughter of a NIUATOPUTAPU Chief this makes sense because Niuatoputapu, Niuafo'ou & Tafahi Islands in Tonga used to be under SAMOA hence there language is mixed with SAMOAN. Many Niuatoputapu, Niuafo'ou & Tafahi people have Samoan last names.

As for Loau it is hard to find out about him because Tongans keep overlooking the fact that he was a foreigner in Tonga so they address him as a Tongan.

Creed the reason I brought up Manu'a as the place of where Loau came from is because Tongan History claims that Loau was King of SAMOA but also ruled parts of Tonga. The real question is if he was not a Tui Manu'a Ma Samoa Atoa where could he have been from to have been King of SAMOA and to have been held power in Tonga? Maybe Upolu?

If you go back to that time line we discussed earlier you will see that Loau is during the time of the 10th Tui Tonga Momo who Tongan History claims was the one who gained influence in parts of Samoa.

Now if in fact Loau was a Tui Manu'a Ma Samoa Atoa this alliance between the Tui Tonga could be the reason Tui Manu'a lost power in Western Samoa the same time Tui Tonga lost power but remember this is only a theory until we can find out more info.

Soifua

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"Creed the reason I brought up Manu'a as the place of where Loau came from is because Tongan History claims that Loau was King of SAMOA but also ruled parts of Tonga. The real question is if he was not a Tui Manu'a Ma Samoa Atoa where could he have been from to have been King of SAMOA and to have been held power in Tonga? Maybe Upolu?"

Ahh I see. I do remember reading a lot of literature stating that Lo'au was a foreigner. I didn't read about him being ruler of Samoa. But saying that, i would say it would be safe to say that he was Manu'a rather than Upolu. There seems to have been some kind of an alliance between Manu'a, Savai'i, and Toga according to some of the things I read. Also, Nua is a title in Manu'a and the wife of Tu'itatu'i could've been a holder of it. Or maybe that's just coincidence.

I think the decline of Tuimanu'a may have been caused by the rise of Tuiatua/Tuiaana. I'm going to go out on a limb and theorize that Tuitoga may have been acting on behalf of Tuimanu'a. Is it a coincidence that Tuamasaga, Tutuila, and Savai'i was where the Tongans had their "bases?" Is it just coincidence that these areas had no "Tui?" Did the rise to power of Tuiatua/Tuiaana worry Tuimanu'a to where he needed help? Why was Tuimanu'a silent during this part of Samoa's history? Or was he silent?

Strategically speaking, Savai'i and Tutuila would be great "staging" points for attacks on the two rising powers. Fortunately(or unfortunately), Tuitoga/Tuimanu'a and their forces weren't able to secure Tuamasaga and Tutuila preventing an invasion from both sides.

Talk about theories and specualtions?? LOL!! I'm going to get a lot of heat for this one!! LOL!!

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victor creed wrote:

"Creed the reason I brought up Manu'a as the place of where Loau came from is because Tongan History claims that Loau was King of SAMOA but also ruled parts of Tonga. The real question is if he was not a Tui Manu'a Ma Samoa Atoa where could he have been from to have been King of SAMOA and to have been held power in Tonga? Maybe Upolu?"

Ahh I see. I do remember reading a lot of literature stating that Lo'au was a foreigner. I didn't read about him being ruler of Samoa. But saying that, i would say it would be safe to say that he was Manu'a rather than Upolu. There seems to have been some kind of an alliance between Manu'a, Savai'i, and Toga according to some of the things I read. Also, Nua is a title in Manu'a and the wife of Tu'itatu'i could've been a holder of it. Or maybe that's just coincidence.

I think the decline of Tuimanu'a may have been caused by the rise of Tuiatua/Tuiaana. I'm going to go out on a limb and theorize that Tuitoga may have been acting on behalf of Tuimanu'a. Is it a coincidence that Tuamasaga, Tutuila, and Savai'i was where the Tongans had their "bases?" Is it just coincidence that these areas had no "Tui?" Did the rise to power of Tuiatua/Tuiaana worry Tuimanu'a to where he needed help? Why was Tuimanu'a silent during this part of Samoa's history? Or was he silent?

Strategically speaking, Savai'i and Tutuila would be great "staging" points for attacks on the two rising powers. Fortunately(or unfortunately), Tuitoga/Tuimanu'a and their forces weren't able to secure Tuamasaga and Tutuila preventing an invasion from both sides.

Talk about theories and specualtions?? LOL!! I'm going to get a lot of heat for this one!! LOL!!






HAHAHH Malo Lava uso! This is what I am talking about in order to seek the truth you must ask questions etc......

Nua is a title in Manu'a I am going to look more into it to find out more about it. As for Tui A'ana & Tui Atua it is said that Tui Atua & Tui A'ana started seperating from Tui Manu'a etc.....

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I am still researching about the Samoan Chief Loau in Tonga but for now I want to post this.

TUI MANU'A & TUI TONGA

THE TUI TONGA TITLE IS CONNECTED TO TUI MANU'A OF SAMOA. THE TUI MANU'A ANCIENTLY HAD INFLUENCE OVER TONGA AND WAS THE FATHER OF THE 1ST TUI TONGA AHOEITU. IT IS SAID BY REV J.E MOULTON FOUNDER OF THE TUPOU COLLEGE IN TONGA THAT THERE WAS A HUGE MIGRATION OF SAMOANS TO TONGA DURING THE REIGN OF AHOEITU son of Tui Manu'a. Samoans first landed on the east end of the island near Lafonga, where they settled after living there for many years, eventually removed to the east entrance into Mua inlet, and some of them still live there today.

MALIETOA & TUI TONGA

TUI TONGA ANCIENTLY HAD INFLUENCE OVER PARTS OF SAMOA AND OCCUPIED THE COASTS OF SAVAII & UPOLU ETC.... IT WAS DURING THE REIGN OF THE 15TH TUI TONGA TALAKAIFAIKI IS WHEN PROBLEMS STARTED HAPPENING FOR THE SIMPLE FACT TUI TONGA TALAKAIFAIKI WAS A CRUEL KING AND STARTED MISTREATING SOME OF THE SAMOAN PEOPLE WHICH LEAD TO WAR IN WHICH HE WAS DEFEATED AND EXPELLED FROM SAMOA GIVING BIRTH THE WARRIOR TITLE MALIETOA. After this incident many MALIETOA'S married into the Tongan Royal family and vice versa.

TUI KANOKUPOLU & SAMOAN CHIEF AMA OF SAFATA UPOLU

THE TUI KANOKUPOLU TITLE IS TRACED BACK TO A SAMOAN CHIEF NAMED AMA OF SAFATA UPOLU. AMA LEFT SAMOA AND SETTLED IN TONGA WITH A HUGE FOLLOWING SOME SAY HE LEFT SAMOA WITH THOUSANDS OF FOLLOWERS WHICH CONSISTED OF SAMOAN WARRIORS ETC..... SAMOAN CHIEF AMA AND HIS SAMOAN FOLLOWERS settled first in present day Tatakamotonga in Mu'a in an area called Fonuamotu. They then moved and occupied all of Hihifo and later through the Ha'a Havea clan (Sa Savea) much of central Tongatapu in the Ha'amea region. Ama and many Samoan Warriors helped establish the Tui Kanokupolu Line by helping Tui Kanokupolu in various Wars to defeat his enemies and gain power in Tonga.

Ama's daughter Limapo married Tui Haatakalaua and gave birth to GHATA. GHATA split from the Tui Haatakalaua Line and created the new Line called TUI KANOKUPOLU (FLESH OF UPOLU) the name KANOKUPOLU was givin in connection to the strong Influence that Samoa had on this dynasty.

SAMOAN CHIEF LOAU & TUI TONGA MOMO

There is also a Samoan & Tongan Connection between these 2 individuals but we shall discuss this issue later for my research is not complete yet.



-- Edited by Manuatele on Thursday 4th of March 2010 11:19:26 AM

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Samoan history;

On Sat 3rd of October 2009, David Tua a.k.a TUAMANATOR delivered 8 total knock outs, knocking Cameron off his feet and onto his mulie, just the second round and already Cameron is KNOCKED OUT, big up's to Cameron kia kaha punching bag, kama had to use a sanitary pad for his maka's, cheeeeehuuuuuu, pick up your face kalofae!!

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Creed and everyone else check this out:

I will show older titles to younger titles.(Correct me if I am wrong).

Tui Manu'a (SAMOA)- 60 holders of this this title
Tui Atua (SAMOA)- 51 holders of this title
Tui Tonga (TONGA)- 39 holders of this title
Tui A'ana -(SAMOA)- 38 holders of this title
Malietoa (SAMOA)- 29 holders of this title
Tui Kanokupolu (TONGA)- 23 holders of this title
Tui Haatakalaua (TONGA)- 16 holders of this title

Believe it or not but all of these Royal Titles and families are related to each other and connected to each other one way or the other.

If you take out the younger titles you are left with these:

Tui Manu'a (SAMOA)- 60 holders of this this title
Tui Atua (SAMOA)- 51 holders of this title
Tui Tonga (TONGA)- 39 holders of this title
Tui A'ana -(SAMOA)- 38 holders of this title

THIS IS THE ORIGINAL POLYNESIAN ROYAL FAMILY STARTING WITH TUI MANU'A.

Evidence that these families being related can be seen by the DIALECT they speak.

SAMOA CHIEFLY DIALECT or UPU FA'AALOALO DIALECT
TONGAN ROYAL DIALECT & TONGAN KING DIALECT

The difference between the 2 Dialects is that in TONGA this dialect is preserved only for the KING and the ROYALS while in SAMOA everyone speaks it.

Similarities:

Tongan Commoner - Mohe,
Tongan Chief/Noble/Prince & Princess - Toka,
Tongan King - Tofa
Samoan Chiefs & People (Upu Faaaloalo) - Sleep (Tofa)

Tongan Commoner - Kai,
Tongan Chief/Noble/Prince & Princess - Ilo,
Tongan King - Taumafa
Samoan Chiefs & People (Upu Faaaloalo) = Eat (Taumafa)

Tonga Commoner - Bath (kaukau),
Tongan Chief/Noble/Prince & Princess - Bath (takele),
Tongan King - Bath (Fakamalu)
Samoan Chiefs & People (Upu Faaaloalo) - Bath (Faamalu)

Many of Samoa's normal day to day dialect or just commoner jargon is used as royal terms in the Tongan language.

Just thought you guys might find this as interesting as I did.




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This is quite interestng. What year was the first Tui Manu'a? and what is his connection to LU?

-- Edited by LN on Friday 12th of March 2010 04:20:26 AM

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For the older titles you mentioned, where is Tagaloa, Tui-Fiti, Tui-Uea..??

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Who's your daddy? TuiManu'a


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Perhaps TAGALOA is not mentioned because the individual may consider its emergence AS a title to be "late"....The title TAGALOA offered to FUNEFEA'I together with Tagaloa's taulauniu, because of TAGALOALAGI's desire for FUNEFEA'I's wife Sinaalaua.
As compared to TUIMANU'A and TUIFITI, Tuiuea would probably be considered young. However, I agree with you in that these titles should be highlighted...inclusive of the discussions of various ancient and significant ROYAL /CHIEFLY titles so others will be able to visualize how they fit into the scheme of things...or more importantly, its context in history.

However, if we are to discuss all things "Samoan" which includes most importantly MANU'ATELE, the first title to descend and bestowed from TAGALOA and the SATAGALOA...according to Manu'a tradition, is the title GALEA'I.

Perhaps others may consider TAGALOA/TAGALOALAGI as a name to be ancient, yet as a title to be quite young. I tend to differ and that is my personal opinion. I see it as ANCIENT and Foremost... as a name and title altogether.biggrin.gif

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Manu'atele,

With all due respect....The TU'I HA'ATAKALAUA preceeds the TU'I KANOKUPOLU regardless of the number of titleholders within their respective generations.

The TuiHa'atakalaua Moungatonga(6th holder of the title) who married Tohuia "Limapo" daughter of Ama i Safata had NGATA the 1st TU'IKANOKUPOLU.
The TU'IKANOKUPOLU is derived from the TU'IHATAKALAUA.









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You are correct about Samoan Chief Ama of Safata's daughter Limapo marrying Tui Haatakalaua and having NGATA but that is not the origin of the title TUI KANOKUPOLU.

The name Kanokupolu (FLESH OF UPOLU) came about because of the strong SAMOAN INFLUENCE from Samoan Chief Ama and all of his followers. It was said it was thousands of Samoans that migrated to Tonga during NGATA and other Kanokupolu's reign in TONGA. NGATA was made a Samoan Chief by his Samoan family and Samoan Chief Ama had a decision to make whether to take there Samoan Chief NGATA and install him as there Chief in Samoa or take him to HIHIFO in TONGA and install him as Chief of Hihifo.

Samoan Chief Ama instead of taking NGATA back to Samoa turned around and they took NGATA to HIHIFO and installed him as Tui HIHIFO of TONGA the only Tongans that went to install NGATA as Tui HIHIFO was his brothers everyone else was SAMOAN.

It is from HIHIFO TONGA that the SAMOAN MATAI SYSTEM Sprouted in TONGA due to the strong SAMOAN INFLUENCE on the KANOKUPOLU DYNASTY.

It is in HIHIFO TONGA that the Samoans made NGATA a Samoan Chief, on Tongan Soil gave him protectors known as Tu'itu'i and Tafa'i which means those privileged to sit on the right and left hand of a chief or protectors etc. The Samoans established the Fale Upolu (Fale Kanokupolu), his FONO (Fale Haakili) & his Itu (District) as a separate KINGDOM in TONGA. As you can see everything about Ngata was SAMOAN and everything he did was the SAMOAN WAY of doing things.

It is written in History that without the support and help from SAMOANS the Tui Kanokupolu Dynasty would not have been successful. Samoans helped this dynasty in various WARS etc.

Even the Matapule's chosen to rule over certain villages and districts in Tonga for the Kanokupolu Line were all SAMOAN.

THIS IS THE REAL REASON FOR THE NAME KANOKUPOLU (FLESH OF UPOLU). Everything about this DYNASTY was SAMOAN and was established because of the help from SAMOANS.



As for Tui Haatakalaua being higher status then the Tui Kanokupolu Ancient times YES but what you forget is that Tui Tonga Laufilitonga the last Tui Tonga was defeated in 1826 by Tupou I, holder of the Tui Kanokupolu title, at the battle of Velata in Haapai. This line even over powered the TUI HAATAKALAUA LINE.

This Line in Tonga KANOKUPOLU LINE rose from the bottom to the TOP and took the CROWN from TUI TONGA.

Remember prior to the rise of this SAMOAN DYNASTY in Tonga no one dared to compete against Tui Tonga etc. But you have to remember it is the SAMOAN WAY to compete for TITLES & Power and the KANOKUPOLU did just that.

SOIFUA





-- Edited by Manuatele on Friday 12th of March 2010 01:59:15 PM

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So this system of chiefs was a Samoan Political system that was pretty revolutionary according to what I can tell. The usual system of Royal family and nobles was in competition with the Samoan style which apparently was very advanced and afforded the common people more power and representation. If what you say is true this system was the first democracy of the Pacific Islands. In examining the democratic model of Athens and that of Samoa it is my personal opinion that these are perhaps the only two democratic models of government to ever be established. The American indians had chiefs also and so did African tribes, but to the level of sophistication found in Samoa, I would say Samoa is unique.
The Samoan model was based on family where the community representation was from family titles which were voted on by members of each family. Each member of a family had the right or say in the selection of a family chief. The family chief was recognized in the village council by virtue of past heroic acts or by the prestige of their roots, who they descended from. Each village was established with strict protocol and positions of authority already established in the village's faalupega. This faalupega was the coat of arms that the village bore when it went to another village. Very well designed and efficient. This system should be promoted more in the realm of politics. Who is to say that the Athens Model is better than ours. I would say the Samoan style of democracy has more flexibility than the Athens model where each citizen is given the right to select leaders. The problem with this is that it diminishes the value of the family and that is where the Samoan style in my opinion succeeds because the family should be the central building block of the society not the individual. Strong loving families are the source of strong individuals.
Anyway that is my 2 cents worth.

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Manuatele wrote:

You are correct about Samoan Chief Ama of Safata's daughter Limapo marrying Tui Haatakalaua and having NGATA but that is not the origin of the title TUI KANOKUPOLU.

The name Kanokupolu (FLESH OF UPOLU) came about because of the strong SAMOAN INFLUENCE from Samoan Chief Ama and all of his followers. It was said it was thousands of Samoans that migrated to Tonga during NGATA and other Kanokupolu's reign in TONGA. NGATA was made a Samoan Chief by his Samoan family and Samoan Chief Ama had a decision to make whether to take there Samoan Chief NGATA and install him as there Chief in Samoa or take him to HIHIFO in TONGA and install him as Chief of Hihifo.

Samoan Chief Ama instead of taking NGATA back to Samoa turned around and they took NGATA to HIHIFO and installed him as Tui HIHIFO of TONGA the only Tongans that went to install NGATA as Tui HIHIFO was his brothers everyone else was SAMOAN.

It is from HIHIFO TONGA that the SAMOAN MATAI SYSTEM Sprouted in TONGA due to the strong SAMOAN INFLUENCE on the KANOKUPOLU DYNASTY.

It is in HIHIFO TONGA that the Samoans made NGATA a Samoan Chief, on Tongan Soil gave him protectors known as Tu'itu'i and Tafa'i which means those privileged to sit on the right and left hand of a chief or protectors etc. The Samoans established the Fale Upolu (Fale Kanokupolu), his FONO (Fale Haakili) & his Itu (District) as a separate KINGDOM in TONGA. As you can see everything about Ngata was SAMOAN and everything he did was the SAMOAN WAY of doing things.

It is written in History that without the support and help from SAMOANS the Tui Kanokupolu Dynasty would not have been successful. Samoans helped this dynasty in various WARS etc.

Even the Matapule's chosen to rule over certain villages and districts in Tonga for the Kanokupolu Line were all SAMOAN.

THIS IS THE REAL REASON FOR THE NAME KANOKUPOLU (FLESH OF UPOLU). Everything about this DYNASTY was SAMOAN and was established because of the help from SAMOANS.



As for Tui Haatakalaua being higher status then the Tui Kanokupolu Ancient times YES but what you forget is that Tui Tonga Laufilitonga the last Tui Tonga was defeated in 1826 by Tupou I, holder of the Tui Kanokupolu title, at the battle of Velata in Haapai. This line even over powered the TUI HAATAKALAUA LINE.

This Line in Tonga KANOKUPOLU LINE rose from the bottom to the TOP and took the CROWN from TUI TONGA.

Remember prior to the rise of this SAMOAN DYNASTY in Tonga no one dared to compete against Tui Tonga etc. But you have to remember it is the SAMOAN WAY to compete for TITLES & Power and the KANOKUPOLU did just that.

SOIFUA


-- Edited by Manuatele on Friday 12th of March 2010 01:59:15 PM








Another thing alot of Samoan Chief Ama's descendants and many of his followers stayed in Tonga and ruled along side Tui Kanokupolu.

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Manuatele wrote:

Manuatele wrote:

You are correct about Samoan Chief Ama of Safata's daughter Limapo marrying Tui Haatakalaua and having NGATA but that is not the origin of the title TUI KANOKUPOLU.

The name Kanokupolu (FLESH OF UPOLU) came about because of the strong SAMOAN INFLUENCE from Samoan Chief Ama and all of his followers. It was said it was thousands of Samoans that migrated to Tonga during NGATA and other Kanokupolu's reign in TONGA. NGATA was made a Samoan Chief by his Samoan family and Samoan Chief Ama had a decision to make whether to take there Samoan Chief NGATA and install him as there Chief in Samoa or take him to HIHIFO in TONGA and install him as Chief of Hihifo.

Samoan Chief Ama instead of taking NGATA back to Samoa turned around and they took NGATA to HIHIFO and installed him as Tui HIHIFO of TONGA the only Tongans that went to install NGATA as Tui HIHIFO was his brothers everyone else was SAMOAN.

It is from HIHIFO TONGA that the SAMOAN MATAI SYSTEM Sprouted in TONGA due to the strong SAMOAN INFLUENCE on the KANOKUPOLU DYNASTY.

It is in HIHIFO TONGA that the Samoans made NGATA a Samoan Chief, on Tongan Soil gave him protectors known as Tu'itu'i and Tafa'i which means those privileged to sit on the right and left hand of a chief or protectors etc. The Samoans established the Fale Upolu (Fale Kanokupolu), his FONO (Fale Haakili) & his Itu (District) as a separate KINGDOM in TONGA. As you can see everything about Ngata was SAMOAN and everything he did was the SAMOAN WAY of doing things.

It is written in History that without the support and help from SAMOANS the Tui Kanokupolu Dynasty would not have been successful. Samoans helped this dynasty in various WARS etc.

Even the Matapule's chosen to rule over certain villages and districts in Tonga for the Kanokupolu Line were all SAMOAN.

THIS IS THE REAL REASON FOR THE NAME KANOKUPOLU (FLESH OF UPOLU). Everything about this DYNASTY was SAMOAN and was established because of the help from SAMOANS.



As for Tui Haatakalaua being higher status then the Tui Kanokupolu Ancient times YES but what you forget is that Tui Tonga Laufilitonga the last Tui Tonga was defeated in 1826 by Tupou I, holder of the Tui Kanokupolu title, at the battle of Velata in Haapai. This line even over powered the TUI HAATAKALAUA LINE.

This Line in Tonga KANOKUPOLU LINE rose from the bottom to the TOP and took the CROWN from TUI TONGA.

Remember prior to the rise of this SAMOAN DYNASTY in Tonga no one dared to compete against Tui Tonga etc. But you have to remember it is the SAMOAN WAY to compete for TITLES & Power and the KANOKUPOLU did just that.

SOIFUA


-- Edited by Manuatele on Friday 12th of March 2010 01:59:15 PM








Another thing alot of Samoan Chief Ama's descendants and many of his followers stayed in Tonga and ruled along side Tui Kanokupolu.





Now something to think about if the Samoan Influenced Tui Kanokupolu Dynasty were to have been defeated in Tonga and expelled from TONGA by the TONGANS would it have made it the same situation as when Tui Tonga had influence in SAMOA and was expelled from SAMOA?

What I am saying is that this situation was the same situation with Tui Tonga but the only difference is that the Samoan Influenced Tui Kanokupolu dynasty did not get expelled from TONGA.





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Manuatele wrote:

You are correct about Samoan Chief Ama of Safata's daughter Limapo marrying Tui Haatakalaua and having NGATA but that is not the origin of the title TUI KANOKUPOLU.

The name Kanokupolu (FLESH OF UPOLU) came about because of the strong SAMOAN INFLUENCE from Samoan Chief Ama and all of his followers. It was said it was thousands of Samoans that migrated to Tonga during NGATA and other Kanokupolu's reign in TONGA. NGATA was made a Samoan Chief by his Samoan family and Samoan Chief Ama had a decision to make whether to take there Samoan Chief NGATA and install him as there Chief in Samoa or take him to HIHIFO in TONGA and install him as Chief of Hihifo.

Samoan Chief Ama instead of taking NGATA back to Samoa turned around and they took NGATA to HIHIFO and installed him as Tui HIHIFO of TONGA the only Tongans that went to install NGATA as Tui HIHIFO was his brothers everyone else was SAMOAN.

It is from HIHIFO TONGA that the SAMOAN MATAI SYSTEM Sprouted in TONGA due to the strong SAMOAN INFLUENCE on the KANOKUPOLU DYNASTY.

It is in HIHIFO TONGA that the Samoans made NGATA a Samoan Chief, on Tongan Soil gave him protectors known as Tu'itu'i and Tafa'i which means those privileged to sit on the right and left hand of a chief or protectors etc. The Samoans established the Fale Upolu (Fale Kanokupolu), his FONO (Fale Haakili) & his Itu (District) as a separate KINGDOM in TONGA. As you can see everything about Ngata was SAMOAN and everything he did was the SAMOAN WAY of doing things.

It is written in History that without the support and help from SAMOANS the Tui Kanokupolu Dynasty would not have been successful. Samoans helped this dynasty in various WARS etc.

Even the Matapule's chosen to rule over certain villages and districts in Tonga for the Kanokupolu Line were all SAMOAN.

THIS IS THE REAL REASON FOR THE NAME KANOKUPOLU (FLESH OF UPOLU). Everything about this DYNASTY was SAMOAN and was established because of the help from SAMOANS.



As for Tui Haatakalaua being higher status then the Tui Kanokupolu Ancient times YES but what you forget is that Tui Tonga Laufilitonga the last Tui Tonga was defeated in 1826 by Tupou I, holder of the Tui Kanokupolu title, at the battle of Velata in Haapai. This line even over powered the TUI HAATAKALAUA LINE.

This Line in Tonga KANOKUPOLU LINE rose from the bottom to the TOP and took the CROWN from TUI TONGA.

Remember prior to the rise of this SAMOAN DYNASTY in Tonga no one dared to compete against Tui Tonga etc. But you have to remember it is the SAMOAN WAY to compete for TITLES & Power and the KANOKUPOLU did just that.

SOIFUA





-- Edited by Manuatele on Friday 12th of March 2010 01:59:15 PM







MANU'ATELE,

I am in no way disagreeing with the fact that the TU'IKANOKUPOLU was a influential and powerful force to contend with, and its role in shaping and impacting both Tongan and Samoan history. Of course, the rise of the TU'IKANOKUPOLU DYNASTY is credited to the manner in which Ngata's families and supporters did things...the FA'ASAMOA way....i le tautua ma atina'e....o latou aiga and Ngata's most valuable resource were his families, immediate and extended relatives, his supporters...his people...his village, district etc

I have not forgotten and am quite familiar with Tongan history which spells out the eventual eclipsing of both the Tu'itonga and Tu'iHa'atakalaua lines. Most importantly, of all the TU'IKANOKUPOLU the most renown would be( "Ofolanga Nginingini" as he was known and called back in Samoa,) the TU'IKANOKUPOLU TAUFA'AHAU TUPOU I and the subsequent wars in which he was involved and who had previously as well claimed the TUI HA'APAI title upon his person(this is before he became TU'IKANOKUPOLU). His eventual abolishing of the Tuitonga and TuiHa'atakalaua lines. Which all merged with the arranged marriage and birth of the royal children of Queen Salote and Prince Consort Tungi etc

We may have differing views as to the meaning or origin of TU'IKANOKUPOLU, but the essential gist of my prior statement is that the TUIKANOKUPOLU Dynasty did not arise overnight, it was not built in a day. The foundation may have been set by Ha'atakalaua Moungamotu'a by designating his son as the 1st TUIKANOKUPOLU.

Additionally...I do not discount the influential role NGATA's grandfather AMA of SAFATA played in seeing to it that his grandson be installed as the TUIKANOKUPOLU.
As there is a historical account by tongan tradition itself that AMA of SAFATA had gone or journeyed first to Tonga and was thus followed later quite later on by his daughter Tohuia Limapo.




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Sina wrote:

Manuatele wrote:

You are correct about Samoan Chief Ama of Safata's daughter Limapo marrying Tui Haatakalaua and having NGATA but that is not the origin of the title TUI KANOKUPOLU.

The name Kanokupolu (FLESH OF UPOLU) came about because of the strong SAMOAN INFLUENCE from Samoan Chief Ama and all of his followers. It was said it was thousands of Samoans that migrated to Tonga during NGATA and other Kanokupolu's reign in TONGA. NGATA was made a Samoan Chief by his Samoan family and Samoan Chief Ama had a decision to make whether to take there Samoan Chief NGATA and install him as there Chief in Samoa or take him to HIHIFO in TONGA and install him as Chief of Hihifo.

Samoan Chief Ama instead of taking NGATA back to Samoa turned around and they took NGATA to HIHIFO and installed him as Tui HIHIFO of TONGA the only Tongans that went to install NGATA as Tui HIHIFO was his brothers everyone else was SAMOAN.

It is from HIHIFO TONGA that the SAMOAN MATAI SYSTEM Sprouted in TONGA due to the strong SAMOAN INFLUENCE on the KANOKUPOLU DYNASTY.

It is in HIHIFO TONGA that the Samoans made NGATA a Samoan Chief, on Tongan Soil gave him protectors known as Tu'itu'i and Tafa'i which means those privileged to sit on the right and left hand of a chief or protectors etc. The Samoans established the Fale Upolu (Fale Kanokupolu), his FONO (Fale Haakili) & his Itu (District) as a separate KINGDOM in TONGA. As you can see everything about Ngata was SAMOAN and everything he did was the SAMOAN WAY of doing things.

It is written in History that without the support and help from SAMOANS the Tui Kanokupolu Dynasty would not have been successful. Samoans helped this dynasty in various WARS etc.

Even the Matapule's chosen to rule over certain villages and districts in Tonga for the Kanokupolu Line were all SAMOAN.

THIS IS THE REAL REASON FOR THE NAME KANOKUPOLU (FLESH OF UPOLU). Everything about this DYNASTY was SAMOAN and was established because of the help from SAMOANS.



As for Tui Haatakalaua being higher status then the Tui Kanokupolu Ancient times YES but what you forget is that Tui Tonga Laufilitonga the last Tui Tonga was defeated in 1826 by Tupou I, holder of the Tui Kanokupolu title, at the battle of Velata in Haapai. This line even over powered the TUI HAATAKALAUA LINE.

This Line in Tonga KANOKUPOLU LINE rose from the bottom to the TOP and took the CROWN from TUI TONGA.

Remember prior to the rise of this SAMOAN DYNASTY in Tonga no one dared to compete against Tui Tonga etc. But you have to remember it is the SAMOAN WAY to compete for TITLES & Power and the KANOKUPOLU did just that.

SOIFUA





-- Edited by Manuatele on Friday 12th of March 2010 01:59:15 PM







MANU'ATELE,

I am in no way disagreeing with the fact that the TU'IKANOKUPOLU was a influential and powerful force to contend with, and its role in shaping and impacting both Tongan and Samoan history. Of course, the rise of the TU'IKANOKUPOLU DYNASTY is credited to the manner in which Ngata's families and supporters did things...the FA'ASAMOA way....i le tautua ma atina'e....o latou aiga and Ngata's most valuable resource were his families, immediate and extended relatives, his supporters...his people...his village, district etc

I have not forgotten and am quite familiar with Tongan history which spells out the eventual eclipsing of both the Tu'itonga and Tu'iHa'atakalaua lines. Most importantly, of all the TU'IKANOKUPOLU the most renown would be( "Ofolanga Nginingini" as he was known and called back in Samoa,) the TU'IKANOKUPOLU TAUFA'AHAU TUPOU I and the subsequent wars in which he was involved and who had previously as well claimed the TUI HA'APAI title upon his person(this is before he became TU'IKANOKUPOLU). His eventual abolishing of the Tuitonga and TuiHa'atakalaua lines. Which all merged with the arranged marriage and birth of the royal children of Queen Salote and Prince Consort Tungi etc

We may have differing views as to the meaning or origin of TU'IKANOKUPOLU, but the essential gist of my prior statement is that the TUIKANOKUPOLU Dynasty did not arise overnight, it was not built in a day. The foundation may have been set by Ha'atakalaua Moungamotu'a by designating his son as the 1st TUIKANOKUPOLU.

Additionally...I do not discount the influential role NGATA's grandfather AMA of SAFATA played in seeing to it that his grandson be installed as the TUIKANOKUPOLU.
As there is a historical account by tongan tradition itself that AMA of SAFATA had gone or journeyed first to Tonga and was thus followed later quite later on by his daughter Tohuia Limapo.








OK SINA Im sorry but I dont really understand what you are trying to say? I know it did not happen over night that this SAMOAN DYNASTY in TONGA gained power but let me ask you this was it Tui Haatakalaua who made NGata a Tui KAnokupolu that set the foundation or was it the SAMOANS and his grandfather AMA or his mothers idea?

Because when Ngata was first established in HIHIFO as ruler or governor he was not a Tui Kanokupolu he created and held the title TUI HIHIFO but later this title became known as the TUI KANOKUPOLU title (FLESH OF UPOLU).

It is from HIHIFO that the Samoans made Ngata a Samoan Chief on Tongan Soil you should know the rest on this dynasty and how it always followed the SAMOAN Ways of Politics and also many of its MATAPULE'S were SAMOANS.

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Uso

I think this was the point Sina originally pointed out. That The Tuihaatakalaua is older than Tuikanokupolu. It seems like you both agreed on everything else.
Just mediating a lil.. lol!!

beace



Manuatele wrote,
" Because when Ngata was first established in HIHIFO as ruler or governor he was not a Tui Kanokupolu he created and held the title TUI HIHIFO but later this title became known as the TUI KANOKUPOLU title (FLESH OF UPOLU). "

Sina wrote,
"With all due respect....The TU'I HA'ATAKALAUA preceeds the TU'I KANOKUPOLU regardless of the number of titleholders within their respective generations."






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Thanks Creed Sina you are correct Tui Haatakalaua is older then the Tui Kanokupolu Line because it went from Tui Tonga to Tui Haatakalaua to Tui Kanokupolu.

Creed I wanted to ask you something everything about the Tui Kanokupolu Dynasty was SAMOAN I have been researching it and it is referred to by many Tongan Scholars as a POWERFUL SAMOAN DYNASTY in TONGA. This Samoan Dynasty created a separate Kingdom in Tonga and did everything the SAMOAN WAY, Matai System etc.....

Matapule's installed to rule over certain villages and districts were SAMOANS etc many Samoan Warriors helped Kanokupolu's in various Wars etc so it is safe to say this dynasty was a SAMOAN DYNASTY in TONGA which consisted of thousands of SAMOANS.



Creed what do you think would have happened if this SAMOAN DYNASTY in TONGA were to have been defeated and expelled from TONGA? Would it have been a remake of the Tui Tonga being expelled from SAMOA incident?

1) 1st Tui Tonga half Samoan half Tongan had influence in Samoa until being expelled.

2) 1st Tui Kanokupolu half Samoan half Tongan had influence in Tonga.

If Tui Kanokupolu was to be expelled from TONGA would it have been blown up to we SAMOANS ruled TONGA? Because from all the info I have gathered SAMOANS ruled Tonga through the Tui Kanokupolu Line the only difference is that this line did not get expelled from TONGA while the Tui Tonga line got expelled from SAMOA.

What your opinion?



-- Edited by Manuatele on Saturday 13th of March 2010 04:32:19 PM

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Manuatele wrote:

Thanks Creed Sina you are correct Tui Haatakalaua is older then the Tui Kanokupolu Line because it went from Tui Tonga to Tui Haatakalaua to Tui Kanokupolu.

Creed I wanted to ask you something everything about the Tui Kanokupolu Dynasty was SAMOAN I have been researching it and it is referred to by many Tongan Scholars as a POWERFUL SAMOAN DYNASTY in TONGA. This Samoan Dynasty created a separate Kingdom in Tonga and did everything the SAMOAN WAY, Matai System etc.....

Matapule's installed to rule over certain villages and districts were SAMOANS etc many Samoan Warriors helped Kanokupolu's in various Wars etc so it is safe to say this dynasty was a SAMOAN DYNASTY in TONGA which consisted of thousands of SAMOANS.



Creed what do you think would have happened if this SAMOAN DYNASTY in TONGA were to have been defeated and expelled from TONGA? Would it have been a remake of the Tui Tonga being expelled from SAMOA incident?

1) 1st Tui Tonga half Samoan half Tongan had influence in Samoa until being expelled.

2) 1st Tui Kanokupolu half Samoan half Tongan had influence in Tonga.

If Tui Kanokupolu was to be expelled from TONGA would it have been blown up to we SAMOANS ruled TONGA? Because from all the info I have gathered SAMOANS ruled Tonga through the Tui Kanokupolu Line the only difference is that this line did not get expelled from TONGA while the Tui Tonga line got expelled from SAMOA.

What your opinion?



-- Edited by Manuatele on Saturday 13th of March 2010 04:32:19 PM






IMO it wouldn't have been blown out of proportion. The difference between Tuitoga's(TT) "rule" in Samoa as opposed to Tuikanokupolu(TK) rule is based on the existing evidence. There are numerous convincing proof of Samoa's actual influence in Tongan politics that there isn't much room left for exaggeration.

On the otherhand, TT so-called "rule" has so little evidence and so many holes about this event that all people can do is speculate on his time in Samoa. This speculation has created a lot of inconsistencies. One major inconsistency would have to be the length of TT's reign, which was a short as 300yrs to as long as 600yrs.

Again, TT's reign is filled with mysteries and inconsistencies which therefore can and has been manipulated and refabricated to boost the self-esteem of certain individuals.

In final, no it would've never have been seen as Samoans ruled the Tongans. There will always be those who refuse to except the truth.

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Heaps of thanks victor creed.aww.gif
That is the point I was originally trying to make.
Cheers for mediating biggrin.gif

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I think you guys might find this interesting:



TUI A'ANO UPOLU DYNASTY IN TONGA

The people of Mu'a Tonga so feared and were jealous of the Samoan settlers that they began causing problems with their guests (Samoans). Apparently, the Samoans from Safata were beating the locals in all manner of sports, boxing, wrestling, club-fighting, music, arts, dance etc...

Fights started to break out between the locals (Tongans) and visitors (Samoans).

Samoan Chief Ama told his warriors to not retaliate but to "tata'amotoga" or just be alert and be wary of the Tongans since they were on Tongan Soil. This is the origin of the name Tatakamotonga which is a village name that still exists today in Tonga.

In the end, Tui Haatakalaua Mo'unga'otonga realised that he had to also create a Itu or district for the Samoans to settle or they might take over the capital Mu'a itself.

He decreed that he would gift the entire Western end of Tongatapu to his youngest son Ngata and he would be installed as Tu'i Hihifo and Tu'i Ha'a Mo'unga (new dynasty). The title Tu'i Kanokupolu merged both of these earlier titles to become what it is now, the paramount title that eventually destroyed the Tu'i Tonga and Tu'i Ha'atakalaua's power and influence in Tongan politics to this day.

Check this out:

The first title holder of the Tu'i Kanokupolu Title was actually Havea (Savea) Mataeletu'apiko, ancestor of all the Ha'a Havea (Sa Savea) Chiefs and subsequent title holders. The name Savea or Havea in Tonga was the name of the first Malietoa also known as Savea. This is because Samoan Chief Ama is of the same direct line as Malietoa Fua'oleto'elau a direct descendant of Malietoa Savea.


When the Tu'i Kanokupolu title was established in Tonga it signified that this Samoan Dynasty in Tonga is now COMPLETE and installed on Tongan Soil and was firmly established 1st in Hihifo, then in central Tongatapu and then throughout Tonga.

The leading clans in Tonga who brought this about were the Ha'a Havea (SA SAVEA) and Ha'a Ngata Motu'a (SA NGATA) who were all apart of the SAMOAN TUI A'ANO UPOLU DYNASTY in TONGA.




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Malo le fa'asoa i lau afioga ale Manuatele...ole suafa lea Tuia'anoupolu\Tuikanokupolu, tasi lenei o suafa o le aiga Sa Malietoa...O le Tuamasaga i Upolu ua uma ona totofi..

O sa'u fa'aopopo lea, ae le fai ai o tou finagalo..

Ole Faletuamasaga.
Ole Falemalietoa.
Ole Tuisamau...etc.

E taua ona tatou malamala ile upu (aiga) male (fale).

O tua mai!!! ole Faletuamasaga, Falemalietoa male Tuisamau..E iai Aiga e Iva ole Malietoa..o aiga foi ia; latou te pulea le suafa ole malietoa...o aiga foi ia; sa o i Tonga ina ua fa'ae'e le suafa ole Tuikanokupolu ia Gata..ole tele o matai ole aiga o Gata Tuikanokupolu i Tonga o suafa uma o aiga ia e iva ole Malietoa..

O aiga ia e iva; oni aiga malolosi ma sa tupuna mai ai foi ni alataua malolosi..ele gata i upolu ma savaii, 'ae na o'o foi i Tonga..

oute talitonu o lo'o malamala lelei iai LN, aua o lona Nu'u e fa'asinotonu iai le isi aiga Malietoa..

a fai ua sala se upu ia fa'amagalo mai.





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Than you Tama Upolu


I learn something new about Samoan History everyday. The Malietoa Family was a powerful family not only did they defeat Tui Tonga Anciently they also defeated Tui Tonga on Tongan Soil Tui A'ana Upolu Dynasty.

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